Alright, let me very briefly qualify my statement about Mitt before I go back to writing papers.

I constantly stick up for Mitt when it comes to irrational attacks on Mormonism (the most vehement of which, by the way, come from Evangelical conservatives). When I said Mitt is a sad representation of Mormonism, it is because the image he has projected on the campaign trail is of someone who will do anything to get elected (changing positions, pandering to the far right, heightening the war and torture rhetoric, etc). John McCain appropriately confronted him on the latter issue. Like it or not, Mitt is the face of Mormonism to much of the country and unfortunately during most of his campaign he has tried to distance himself from his religion because of poll-driven politics.

Now, as to some of the unfounded accusations against democrats. First of all, I am not a democrat, though my views typically align closer to them than republicans. The candidate I believe best represents my Mormon values is Barack Obama. And trust me, I've researched all the candidates very carefully.

So let's go over some things. The main difference between republicans and democrats historically is economic paradigms. Conservatives are generally pro free market, capitalism, globalization, etc with as little intervention as possible. Privatize everything. Make everything compete. In other words, every man for himself. Anyone who does a little homework, however, realizes this raises some major moral and ethical issues. Especially when we realize the repercussions (poverty, exploitation, human rights violations, etc) of this system without any checks or restrictions. Needless to say, it's not very Christian.

Liberals, on the other hand, believe that as a society we have some responsibilities to one another. If someone is in poverty we should give them a hand up, if someone needs health care they should get it regardless of their socio-economic status, if someone gets old, they shouldn't just be disposed of like a worn out cog. In other words, we believe in social programs like health care, education, social security, etc. We believe that minimum wage should be liveable. We believe corporations should be responsible and ethical. We believe, ulitmately , that people are more important than profit. Sounds healthy enough, right?

As for the other issues:

Abortion- Many democrats aren't pro-abortion, they are pro-choice. Their is a difference.
Gay rights- Are gay people making your life awful in some way? If they want to be by the person they love in the hospital does that just ruin your existence? We do believe in free agency, right?
Environment- Doesn't Mormonism believe the earth is God's creation and we should treat it as such. Is there really any debate about global warming among educated people?
War- Why some Mormons have become so gun ho about war is beyond me. What a tragic and costly mistake. War is rarely the answer and it certainly wasn't anywhere close the answer in the case of Iraq.

Bottom line: Think again when you say that Mormons can't be liberals. Many of us are and find it much more consistent with our values/beliefs than conservatism. When I hear Mitt speak much of his worldview doesn't resonate with mine, but I do hope he is judged on his merits and policies, not on his religion.

MagicMax wrote:

Abortion- Many democrats aren't pro-abortion, they are pro-choice. Their is a difference.
Gay rights- Are gay people making your life awful in some way? If they want to be by the person they love in the hospital does that just ruin your existence? We do believe in free agency, right?
Environment- Doesn't Mormonism believe the earth is God's creation and we should treat it as such. Is there really any debate about global warming among educated people?
War- Why some Mormons have become so gun ho about war is beyond me. What a tragic and costly mistake. War is rarely the answer and it certainly wasn't anywhere close the answer in the case of Iraq.

Abortion- The Church has a hard-line pro-life stance. As should we all honestly. There's no way around supporting the murder of thousands of babies.

Gay rights- The Church also has a hard-line stance of marriage between a man and a woman. I'm from California, remember? Our ecclesiastical leaders were very involved in the statewide campaign to clearly define marriage as between members of the opposite sex, and they were instructed by the brethren to do so.

Environment- Google "Global Warming" and "PsuedoScience" someday. Millions of people die every year because the money that could have been spent to save their lives was instead wasted on this scare-myth.

War- Read the Book of Mormon. It is the duty of those in power to stand up for people anywhere who are being oppressed.

Some people are LDS and Democrat. How, I don't know.

I used to be very cool towards Mitt because he shared my religion. The more I studied him, the more convinced I become that there's no one else worth wasting a vote on, unless it is the guy running against Hillary (the devil).

And I still don't understand voting for marijuana-smoking, cocaine-snorting, baby-killing, gay-marrying (family-unit wrecking) Barack Obama. Enlighten me.

MagicMax wrote:

Alright, let me very briefly qualify my statement about Mitt before I go back to writing papers.

I constantly stick up for Mitt when it comes to irrational attacks on Mormonism (the most vehement of which, by the way, come from Evangelical conservatives). When I said Mitt is a sad representation of Mormonism, it is because the image he has projected on the campaign trail is of someone who will do anything to get elected (changing positions, pandering to the far right, heightening the war and torture rhetoric, etc). John McCain appropriately confronted him on the latter issue. Like it or not, Mitt is the face of Mormonism to much of the country and unfortunately during most of his campaign he has tried to distance himself from his religion because of poll-driven politics.

It's a little amazing that Harry Reid, the UT Senators, etc... don't ever have their religion brought up in the same way, isn't it? Makes you wonder what the Media's agenda is... I will say that I agree a bit with your characterization of Mitt's image.

Now, as to some of the unfounded accusations against democrats. First of all, I am not a democrat, though my views typically align closer to them than republicans. The candidate I believe best represents my Mormon values is Barack Obama. And trust me, I've researched all the candidates very carefully.

How could you possibly know that? Obama is about as much of a blank slate that hasn't shown anything as any of the candidates. He has such a small track record of actions that it's almost impossible to tell how he'd actually act if elected. With politicians, policy papers they had their staff write and campaign promises don't count, actions do.

So let's go over some things. The main difference between republicans and democrats historically is economic paradigms. Conservatives are generally pro free market, capitalism, globalization, etc with as little intervention as possible. Privatize everything. Make everything compete. In other words, every man for himself. Anyone who does a little homework, however, realizes this raises some major moral and ethical issues. Especially when we realize the repercussions (poverty, exploitation, human rights violations, etc) of this system without any checks or restrictions. Needless to say, it's not very Christian.

Free markets and capitalism have reduced more poverty than anything else in the world ever has. The way you use "exploitation" is in the sense of, "Your employer exploits you by paying you to work for him" and makes no sense at all to the people you claim to have been "exploited". Capitalist economies have the best human rights records of any type of nation in the world. Tha facts simply don't back up your contentions.

Liberals, on the other hand, believe that as a society we have some responsibilities to one another. If someone is in poverty we should give them a hand up, if someone needs health care they should get it regardless of their socio-economic status, if someone gets old, they shouldn't just be disposed of like a worn out cog. In other words, we believe in social programs like health care, education, social security, etc. We believe that minimum wage should be liveable. We believe corporations should be responsible and ethical. We believe, ulitmately , that people are more important than profit. Sounds healthy enough, right

No, the liberals you are talking about don't believe in helping people, they believe in stealing from others in order to help people, gaining power over other people's lives in the process. That's why conservative Republicans donate way more of their own money and time to charity than liberal democrats do. Generally speaking, when a liberal says "we" need to do something, what they actually mean is that "you" need to have your freedom reduced and your earnings confiscated so that "they" can spend it on what "they" find more important since "they" know what's best and "you" don't.

As for the other issues:

Abortion- Many democrats aren't pro-abortion, they are pro-choice. Their is a difference.

The official position of the LDS church is a pro-life one.

Gay rights- Are gay people making your life awful in some way? If they want to be by the person they love in the hospital does that just ruin your existence? We do believe in free agency, right?

I personally don't think that the government should punish gay people for being gay. I also don't think that the government should give them special benefits just because they're gay and have pandered to powerful Democrats. That seems to be what becoming a "protected class" is all about, though.

Environment- Doesn't Mormonism believe the earth is God's creation and we should treat it as such. Is there really any debate about global warming among educated people?

We also believe that this creation was meant to be used and taken care of, not artificially restricted as a back-door method of implementing socialism and government control of property. The worst environmental disasters occur when property is controlled by a government. Private owners take care of their property. Government owned property ends up looking like Chernobyl, a "housing project", or a massive wildfire. As for global warming, the earth may be increasing in temperature a little bit over the next couple of hundred years, or it may not. That may or may not be a good thing. The scientific likelyhood that we have anything to do with that is miniscule. What is the "ideal" temperature for the world anyway?

War- Why some Mormons have become so gun ho about war is beyond me. What a tragic and costly mistake. War is rarely the answer and it certainly wasn't anywhere close the answer in the case of Iraq.

I'm totally against agressive war. However, we didn't start the war with the terrorists. They've been attacking us for years before 9/11 made us start to actually respond. Saddam made the mistake of attacking Kuwait, leading to his position of a cease fire with the U.S. with very specific conditions. When he stopped following those conditions and gave indications that he was going to be supplying terrorists with chemical weapons, we took him out. In the process, we're stuck rebuilding Iraq as a moral duty. That process appears to be going much better and taking much less time than it ever has in any other county we've ever conquered in the past. It's too bad most Americans have no knowledge of history anymore.

Bottom line: Think again when you say that Mormons can't be liberals. Many of us are and find it much more consistent with our values/beliefs than conservatism. When I hear Mitt speak much of his worldview doesn't resonate with mine, but I do hope he is judged on his merits and policies, not on his religion.

There are a lot of Mormons who are Liberals and plenty who are also Democrats. You do need to recognize that the vast majority are not and find their belief in freedom of choice and in agency (not the misnomer of "free agency&quot leads them to be more inclined to support candidates who also believe in freedom of choice for people, rather then forcing them to do the "good" their leaders have decided they must do. Forcing everyone to do what you think is good seems a lot more like what we called "Satan's Plan" back in Primary.

Let's be real, as important issues that abortion and gay rights are, they're really not relevant issues in electing the next president. Not much is going to change in those areas anyway.

In my opinion we need to elect a president who will:

1) Be tough on illegal immigration
2) Be tough on terrorism
3) Help the economy

These are the big issues facing America today.

As far as #1 & 2 go...Tancredo is the MAN. Unfortunately he doesn't stand a chance.

On # 3 I think Romney is the man. He doesn't stand a chance either. I like Huckabee's fair tax idea although it would never pass.

So, Hillary just needs to be beat, and Guliani is the only one who could do that.

For the guy who said Obama reflects his Mormon beliefs the most (or something along those lines), try reading a book..like his. He's a piece of garbage.

To those who are making ad hominem attacks on Barack Obama:

Barack Obama is a man of faith.
Barack Obama is a good husband and father.
Barack Obama believes in helping all Americans, not just the wealthy.
Barack Obama believes in equal rights and equal opportunity.
Barack Obama has the best crossover appeal of any candidate of either party and has consistently worked across party lines to get things done.
Barack Obama is the most intelligent candidate of either party (try actually reading his books or listening to his speeches instead of buying Sean Hannity propaganda)
Barack Obama saw the war for what it was from the beginning and spoke out accordingly.
Barack Obama has experience as a community organizer, a constitutional law professor, a state senator, and a US Senator. He also graduated from Columbia and Harvard (where he was head of the law review).

As for the "baby-killing, coke snorting, blah, blah, blah" diatribe: Half the professors at BYU would disagree with your assessment (not to mention a good percentage of the church, including Harry Reid and Mitt Romney until he decided to run for president)

But life is much easier when you caricature the "enemy," isn't it?