craigoscarson wrote:

mormonrasta wrote:

craigoscarson wrote:

(My former mentor would have argued til the sun went down that Oscar Robertson was the greatest basketball player ever to live - he did average a triple double in his career, something neither Jordan or Kobe have done in a single season; and why Magic Johnson is considered by many to be a close 2nd to MJ in greatest player ever... he could do it all)

I'll judge Kobe's greatness when he's done playing, but I'm with you in that he's closer to Jordan than many people think.

I think it would be an interesting discussion comparing Magic to Jordan. It seems everybody has Jordan ranked #1 and Magic #2 or lower, but Magic had a better FG% and FT%, and more rebounds and assists than Jordan in the playoffs to go along with more Finals appearances. Pretty impressive.

I still give the edge to Jordan as Magic got to play with Kareem and Worthy while Jordan played with Will Perdue and the Big Quitter (Scottie Pippen).

Right, the point isn't that Kobe > MJ, it's that it's worthy of conversation at this point in their careers; the fact that we can't name 2-3 better 2/3 guard/point forwards for comparison in itself makes the argument that it's not so far fetched.

Some are acting like the fact that Kobe didn't go to college and entered the NBA at 18, while Michael entered the NBA right after turning 21 is that much of a difference. (3 years)
MJ played with an NBA allstar team in college (Perkins, Worthy, Ford, etc. etc.) and came to the league more than ready.
Kobe scored 8.7 pts a game his rookie season as a raw unschooled player without the benefit of experience and the coaching of a Dean Smith, etc.

Now add the fact in that MJ was the primary scorer the day he entered the league, while Kobe had to play 2nd fiddle to Shaq for 3 years and again those 3 years don't have as much bearing as you'd think. In Kobes 4th year since high school, he averaged 29.4 pts/game in Michaels 4th yr out of high school, he averaged 28.2.
Why is this important? Kobe had to share the ball with Shaq. Michael had the green light everytime he touched the ball.

Again, I (and any right minded fan) concede the fact that MJ is still the greatest that ever lived. The point is that it's not so far fetched to compare the 2 players. And unless you can give me several players that starkly fit in between the two at the shooting guard/point forward position, the comparison deservedly exists.

In the history of basketball, millions of people have played the game, and of all the millions that have ever picked up a basketball, there might be a handful you could sandwich between MJ and Kobe. Of those in between, how many had 3-4 rings before the age of 30? or had scored 20,000 points anywhere near the same age?
or had scored 81 points in a single NBA game?

Again, the point is that the conversation is not ridiculous. Kobe is not my favorite player by any means; not even in my top 30... but he deserves to be in that discussion.

Want a mind boggling fact to tie in the comparison? Neither player has ever won an NBA championship without Phil Jackson coaching them....In fact neither has ever made it to a finals without Phil..
Jackson has a total of 10 NBA championship rings: one as a player with the New York Knicks, six as coach of the Bulls, and three as coach of the Lakers. Nine NBA championships as a head coach ties him with Red Auerbach for the all-time lead in that category. Phil Jackson also holds the best playoff winning percentage of all-time. As of the end of the 2007-08 NBA Season, Jackson's regular season record stands at 976-418

Aside from the famous bogus rape trial season in 03-04 (where the Lakers still limped in to the NBA finals with an injured Shaq and Karl Malone).. Kobe might have finished this season with 5 rings of his own by the end of this season. Still 4 isn't bad if they win this series.

I think they can be in the same discussion offensively, just not as an all around player. Kobe is a great offensive talent, but he doesn't bring all of the same kinds of things to the table that MJ did. MJ was a great defender, and a great passer. Plus he was a winner. He didn't even have an injured karl malone or shaq on any of his finals runs. In fact he didn't have anyone that was close to the caliber of players that kobe has won championships with. There is a reason that Shaq was the finals MVP for all three of kobe's championships. Kobe is a great player, and a great scorer, but he does not belong in the discussion of greatest to ever play the game. The two MJ's, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russel, Tim Duncan and maybe Larry Bird belong in the discussion, I just don't think kobe has proven that he has achieved that yet. Is he one of the best offensive players to ever play, sure, I'll give him that, but for me, there is a big difference between being the best offensive player and the best player to ever play.

If the discussion is best shooting guard/small forwards to play, then sure I'll say you can mention kobe in that list, but if the discussion is best all around player to ever play, I don't agree that kobe belongs in that discussion. At least not yet, if he picks up his defensive game, and continues to become more of a team player then who knows, but he is not there yet.

Kobe isn't even the greatest laker to ever play. Who would you take to start a team? Kareem, Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain or Shaq in their prime or Kobe. I think I'd take any of those other guys before I'd take Kobe.

Obviously you aren't sick of the debate because you freaking posted it!!! Anyway, if you take 5 kobe's vs 5 jordans, jordan would easily win, but add lebron in the mix and it's a tough game. Lebron is still the more complete player, he could play 4 out of the 5 positions because of his size. If you just do one on one, I think kobe would win, because he's good at doing it all him self.

At age 30, Kobe has accomplished enough to be on that short list. He might not be MJ, but he has shown more ability to put away a team than anyone since MJ.

Go back and watch the last game vs the Spurs, he made Duncan look silly.

Hengst wrote:

Gymcoug318 wrote:

Hengst! I completely agree with you man! Kobe is a great player! But in my opinion I don't even think he is the best player in the nba! In my opinion the best player in the nba when healthy is Dwyane Wade! He hasn't been completely healthy in the last two years. But when he is look at out nba! I am kind of bias! But look what he did two years ago in the finals almost single handily beat the mavericks in six games winning four straight!
I know a lot of you won't agree with me! You'll say well he had Shaq! But an older Shaq! In the finals shaq only averaged only just over 13 points a game! And flash averaged just under 35 points a game! He dominated especially the last four games! He was a so clutch! Whereas Kobe as Hengst as said he has never won finals mvp Shaq won all three finals mvp with the lakers. and he won't win it this year either. That honor is going to go to paul pierce! Celtics big three are simply better then Lakers big three. Celtics in six! Go celts! BEAT LA! BEAT LA! BEAT LA!

Hmm, if I was going to start a team and I could take any NBA player I would take Labron I think his all around game is better than kobe's even if Kobe's offense is better. If the argument was between Kobe and Dwane Wade that's a tough question. I might just end up going with Kobe because Dwayne has a hard time staying healthy as of late. Take that out of the equation and Wade definitely has more upside considering his relative youth.

True Lebron is a great player. And doesn't have that much too work with. But Flash is a better shooter and more clutch I trust Flash hitting the last shot then Lebron. But I do agree. That's why i said when he's healthy! And I've been hearing reports that he feels that he's a 100 percent for the first time in two years! I still take flash over Lebron. Flash has a ring and finals mvp trophy. Which Lebron doesn't have. Flash didn't get it riding the coat tails of Shaq because it's because of Wade that they won the title. I do agree I like Wade and Lebron over Kobe!

craigoscarson wrote:
[quote]

(My former mentor would have argued til the sun went down that Oscar Robertson was the greatest basketball player ever to live - he did average a triple double in his career, something neither Jordan or Kobe have done in a single season; and why Magic Johnson is considered by many to be a close 2nd to MJ in greatest player ever... he could do it all)

Oscer Robertson didn't average a triple double for his career, he only did during one season, 61-62 with Cincinnati. He is still way up there on the list and was Magic Johnson before there was a Magic Johnson. I would put Magic Johnson above the Big O, though. Interesting fact I didn't know about Oscar Robertson is that as great a player as he was, he didn't win a title until he teamed up with, guess who, Lew Alcindor (aka Kareem Abdul Jabbar).

http://www.nba.com/history/players/robertson_stats.html

http://www.nba.com/history/robertson_bio.html

You're right on Oscar, looks like he barely missed averaging a triple double for his career; I've never looked at the stats on that, just listened to an old doctor about his favorite player.

I suppose you'll tell me next that Pete Maravich couldn't walk on water