http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

My wife is an ER nurse in Mesa, AZ. They have a constant flow of illegals (and Canadian snow birds in the winter). The illegals and semi-illegals (children born in the USA to illegals) are overrunning the ER. Most of them are not there for emergency care, just simple medical care - for free.

For 13 years while living in Washington State, my neighbors were Canadian snow birds who came down to the Vancouver, WA area for the winter simply to receive better health care.

Now I have two Canadian neighbors here in AZ that are doing the same thing. When I asked on of them about whether the U.S. health care system was better than the Canadian one, his response was "have you ever heard of large numbers of Americans going to Canada for better health care?"

My opinion on the high cost of prescription medication is that it is the fault of our federal government. The Fed needs to file WTO unfair trade actions against Canada and the EU to force them to remove their price controls on prescription drugs. Once that happens, the U.S. prescription drug prices will no longer be kept artifically high while we subsidize the Canadian and EU low fixed prices. Both have been getting a free ride courtesy of the U.S. consumer for too long.

Back in 2004 I was working out at a Bally Fitness center in Gilbert, AZ. While working on a calf exercise machine, I felt a numbness in my left foot. Two days later I went to a foot doctor because the numbness was still there. An hour later, at 11 AM, I was in ICU at Banner Baywood Heart Hospital in Mesa, AZ. By 9 PM that evening my bill was nearly $35K and they had yet to even give me a meal.

I finally called my brother inlaw and had him bring me up a pepperoni pizza. Yeah I know it was the ICU but what the heck - I was hungry and figured it might be my last good tasting meal.

When I finally got out of the hospital five days later my bill had topped $100K.

Some of the items they charged me for were incredible. $6.00 for a single aspirin when I was admitted (even though I refused it because I had taken a couple just before I left home). $80 per dose for twelve doses of an IV Prilosec substitute that I also refused.

My health insurance through work paid $15K of the entire bill. My employer had gutted the health insurance plan about two months earlier and I was still trying to obtain my own coverage when I was hospitalized.

I tried to negotiate with the hospital with no success. They even refused to removed the charges for medication that I had been charged for but had refused to take. I fought them for three years to no avail. The only option was to file suit but that wasn't really an option since my wife works at another of the Banner hospitals. I tried to meet with the hospital's CEO but he refused. I wrote him several letters and received no reply. He's my folks stake president. I'm just glad I'm not in his stake.

I finally went down to Walmart and bought two 1000 count bottles of aspirin for $9.95 each. I then took them to the Hospital's CFO. She asked me what those were for and I told her I was using them to pay $12K on my bill. For some reason she didn't seem to think my aspirin were worth as much as hers.

Meantime, though a software developer, I do computer repairs on the side at times. I'm looking for a chance to repair the computer of a doctor or a Banner big wig. When that happens, I'll be sure to come up with an incredible list of creative charges... (oh that little screw I used on your motherboard - it's a very expensive special screw that costs over $9000 and the installation costs are another 25% because of the high cost to educate and train the specialist that installed it...)

Sure wish I was an illegal. At least the medical care would have been free.

Conosticator wrote:

Back in 2004 I was working out at a Bally Fitness center in Gilbert, AZ. While working on a calf exercise machine, I felt a numbness in my left foot. Two days later I went to a foot doctor because the numbness was still there. An hour later, at 11 AM, I was in ICU at Banner Baywood Heart Hospital in Mesa, AZ. By 9 PM that evening my bill was nearly $35K and they had yet to even give me a meal.

I finally called my brother inlaw and had him bring me up a pepperoni pizza. Yeah I know it was the ICU but what the heck - I was hungry and figured it might be my last good tasting meal.

When I finally got out of the hospital five days later my bill had topped $100K.

Some of the items they charged me for were incredible. $6.00 for a single aspirin when I was admitted (even though I refused it because I had taken a couple just before I left home). $80 per dose for twelve doses of an IV Prilosec substitute that I also refused.

My health insurance through work paid $15K of the entire bill. My employer had gutted the health insurance plan about two months earlier and I was still trying to obtain my own coverage when I was hospitalized.

I tried to negotiate with the hospital with no success. They even refused to removed the charges for medication that I had been charged for but had refused to take. I fought them for three years to no avail. The only option was to file suit but that wasn't really an option since my wife works at another of the Banner hospitals. I tried to meet with the hospital's CEO but he refused. I wrote him several letters and received no reply. He's my folks stake president. I'm just glad I'm not in his stake.

I finally went down to Walmart and bought two 1000 count bottles of aspirin for $9.95 each. I then took them to the Hospital's CFO. She asked me what those were for and I told her I was using them to pay $12K on my bill. For some reason she didn't seem to think my aspirin were worth as much as hers.

Meantime, though a software developer, I do computer repairs on the side at times. I'm looking for a chance to repair the computer of a doctor or a Banner big wig. When that happens, I'll be sure to come up with an incredible list of creative charges... (oh that little screw I used on your motherboard - it's a very expensive special screw that costs over $9000 and the installation costs are another 25% because of the high cost to educate and train the specialist that installed it...)

Sure wish I was an illegal. At least the medical care would have been free.

ouch that cost has gotta sting (or cripple). Mind if I ask what was wrong with your foot?

You know, my Mom works as an LPN for an IHC clinic. IHC is currently in the process of trying to phase out all of their LPNs and replace them with all of these other random acronyms that they can pay a couple dollars an hour less. The funny thing is that they're not willing to hire enough to even do the work. That's not even to mention that most of these little RNAs, etc. aren't even willing to do the extra work that the LPNs will do. The nurses in her office work they're tail-ends off to keep up with the amount of work that's expected of them and IHC is still coming to them and saying that they HAVE to lay-off or cut back hours. They can't even get the work done now. The extra work will have to fall back to the doctors who are swamped as it is.

Why is this relevant? IHC says that the purpose for the cutbacks is to ensure cheaper medical services. The problem is, the consumer (you and I) are not seeing any decrease in cost. Someone (in an office at IHC corprate) is making A LOT of money and others are suffering for it. Health care companies are corrupt and insurance companies are a joke.

P.S. When the nurses started communicating with eachother about the poor working conditions they were warned that the formation of a union and/or going on strike would not accomplish anything but to get them into legal trouble. Apparently it is illegal for them to go on strike.

OLB wrote:

Airwolf84 wrote:

OLB wrote:

Airwolf84 wrote:

People making minimum wage can't get by at all... their monthly income would be $960 (even less than that after taxes)... not even enough to make a rent payment in a lot of places. The minimum wage of $5.75 is an atrocity!!! The name of the game in today's society is shortchanging employees and cutting costs no matter the expense in order to improve the bottom line. It's no accident that today's CEO makes an obscene $575 to every $1 one of their employees makes. 50 years ago, this ratio was about 50 to 1 and the average family could survive on one income just fine, but not anymore.

Before you spout off your crap about minimum wage, why don't you check out the Bureau of Labor Statistics. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2004.htm

Do you even have a freaking clue who the minimum wage earners are in our society? More than half of all minimum wage earners are under the age of 25. A quarter of all minimum wage earners are teenagers. In other words, at least half of all minimum wage earners are either teenagers in high school or young adults who are probably working while they go to school or learn a trade. This is backed up by the fact that more than 50 percent of minimum wage earners work less than 35 hours a week. So these minimum wage earners are living at home or are sharing apartments with other people (kind of like what one does when they are young, single, and going to school).

You make it sound like people are trying to have families while working a minimum wage job. The fact is that 60 percent of all minimum wage earners have never been married. These are people that live with roommates so they can share living and utility costs.

While I am sympathetic about your rant on CEO salaries, the fact is that the average American has more material wealth today than 10, 20, or 50 years ago. I won't argue that the average American is better off today, because much of "better off" has to do with the way one lives his/her life. But nobody can dispute that American's live better.

Today most Americans have air conditioned homes, air conditioned cars, cable television, multiple TVs, computers, DVDs and DVD players, I-Pods, cell phones, digitial cameras, high speed internet, etc. How many people had these things even 15 years ago?

I'm well aware of the age group factor with minimum wage OLB, however, are you going to sit there and tell me that there isn't one adult with a family to support who isn't working minimum wage? As far as I am concerned, anyone who is an adult with a family to provide for who is earning less than $6 per hour is a victim of unethical compensation and greed, plain and simple! I know people who use to make $75,000 per year (computer programmers, I.T. Analysts, etc.) who were laid off after the dotcom bubble of the '90's burst in 2000 and had to settle for $8 per hour or less working at places like Home Depot! My point is that the minimum wage is beyond absurd and doesn't allow ANYONE to even pay for their roof over the head, let alone for food, a vehicle, insurance, utilities, etc.!!!

No, I didn't say that there wasn't one adult with a family working at minimum wage. But the number of people in that situation are so small that to even bring them up is simply disengenous. It is calling the anomoly the norm.

By and large, if you are an adult and you are working at a minimum wage job and you have a family, you have probably screwed up somewhere along the line. You didn't get enough education, you don't work hard, you aren't dependable, you have an addiction problem, or you spent time in the slammer. But you are not a victim of anything except yourself. I will grant that persons with a skill set are forced to take on minimum jobs, either for supplemental income or to help them get through a strech of unemployment. I talk about that in a few paragraphs. But skilled workers, and those with real experience, do not make minimum wage.

Lets suppose that a 25 year old guy with a wife and two kids is unemployed. He goes into the McDonalds and gets hired at minimum wage flipping burgers. If this guy even has an inkling of smarts inside his brain, and shows up 97% of the time, and works relatively hard, the guy will be a shift manager within 6 months. Easy. If the guy is like you and I, he'll probably be a shift manager in 3 months and managing his own store in 18-24 months.

I didn't want to go all Churchie on you, but you leave me no other choice: President Hinkely (God rest his soul) said it best: "Get a good eduction. The world will largely pay you what they think you're worth." If you are only getting paid minimum wage, its because the world only thinks you're worth that much. And if you believe that you have a skill set that demands more money, then you need to find another job.

I know of a few computer programmers that lost their nice paying jobs because of the tech bubble. One of them worked at the local Lowes for 18 months until the market recovered. He was working near minimum wage. He had a skill set, but it simply took many months to find a spot. But he eventually did find a new job, and it pays many times more than minimum wage. So your example about programmers getting the shaft is more an example of collateral damage when markets collapes and less of an example of day-to-day, year-to-year, and decade-to-decade examples of person that are perpetually stuck at or near minimum wage.

I agree with you that the minimum wage doesn't allow for someone to pay for their own place, buy food, make a car payment, pay insurance, utilities, etc. But the fact is if you are making minimum wage, you are probably single, living with family/roommates, depend on a parent for health insurance, and you probably take the bus.

...but the fact is if you are making minimum wage, you are probably single, living with family/roommates, depend on a parent for health insurance, and you probably take the bus.

I agree 100%, but I was simply trying to point out that not everyone falls into this category as many have fallen victim to circumstances beyond their control, such as being laid off.

I know of a few computer programmers that lost their nice paying jobs because of the tech bubble. One of them worked at the local Lowes for 18 months until the market recovered. He was working near minimum wage. He had a skill set, but it simply took many months to find a spot. But he eventually did find a new job, and it pays many times more than minimum wage. So your example about programmers getting the shaft is more an example of collateral damage when markets collapes and less of an example of day-to-day, year-to-year, and decade-to-decade examples of person that are perpetually stuck at or near minimum wage.

Very true, but at the same time, is it right for someone who spent, say four years in college obtaining that bachelor's degree in computer science to have to settle for an $8 per hour job for almost two years after earning $75,000 for who knows how long? IMO, there should be minimum wage laws also BASED ON EDUCATION/DEGREE(S) OBTAINED so that a man who suddenly finds himself earning $8 per hour after being laid off from a job where he was making $36 doesn't have to go into debt just to live, file for bankruptcy and who knows what else. The biggest problem is that capitalism always falls prey to greed and the love of money is what eventually always brings down a society, as we are seeing right now with the housing and mortgage mess, banking crises, foreclosures, bankrupcties, etc.

Conosticator wrote:

I finally went down to Walmart and bought two 1000 count bottles of aspirin for $9.95 each. I then took them to the Hospital's CFO. She asked me what those were for and I told her I was using them to pay $12K on my bill. For some reason she didn't seem to think my aspirin were worth as much as hers.

I'm extremely bored with this topic and this thread as a whole, but that my friend is comedy!