Hengst wrote:

This really isn't a political post per say. There has been a disturbing trend in this thread that I feel like I should comment on.

This idea that all poor people are dumb or lazy just seems short sighted to me. Are there some that are? sure, i'll give you that. But it just takes a couple of bad breaks and any one of us could be living on the street or working in a minimum wage job. Not to mention all of the mentally ill or developmentally disabled individuals who are in that situation. (and before you start spouting off about wellfare for those individuals many of those people are afraid to work because it will get rid of their benefits and then they won't be able to live, there has to be a better way of weaning people off of well fare, but that's another discussion).

There are A Lot of good arguments you can make for not raising the minimum wage (inflation for example - there I even gave you a freebee ;) ). But the poor are just dumb and lazy is not one of them.

It is true that teenagers make a up a large percentage of minimum wage earners, but there are 2 things that are important to remember about that. First, there are many teenagers in the inner city which are working, not for extra cash, but to support their families. Not everyone has the opportunity to grow up in the suburbs. Second, there is still a large percentage of people that don't fit into that demographic.

The idea that the poor are not dumb and lazy does not mean you need to espouse liberal values (as much as i'd like you to ;) ). It just means you ought to espouse what I see as some Christian values.

Wasn't it paul who said something about true religion being caring for the poor the sick and afflicted.
Didn't king benjamin say something about not hating the poor just because they're poor?

This doesn't mean we have to raise taxes per say. It just means we all have a responsibility to volunteer on occasion and donate to charity, pay our fast offerings (if your lds) etc . . .

I do know you can be a good christian and a good conservative, what I don't know is if you can be a good christian and despise the poor.

So please, I implore you, when arguing not to raise the minimum wage don't use the poor people are just "dumb and lazy" argument, it's really not very well thought out.

I'm not saying that those of you who made those comments do, but from what you said that wouldn't be a huge leap to make.

First, if you want higher wages, then remove government intervention and remove the minimum wage. Ask anyone trained in real economics (not social economics) and your eyes will be opened. (Quinns first law of liberalism : Liberalism generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.)
Second, I grew up in Laie, going to Kahuku High School. One of the poorest schools in the nation. Almost nobody had a car. It took me six months to save up $35 to buy something I really wanted. Yet I am now considered "rich" by liberal standards. I went to college and paid mine and my wife's way through. I worked 50-60hrs a week while carrying 16-18 credit hours. I finished first in both majors, both minors, and both associate degrees that I took at the time. I worked. That is what it take and I did come from a very poor family. I am the first college graduate on either side of my parents family. While in school I made friends with someone from an even poorer background. He came from Columbia. He worked to by a tent and then set it up in a nearby beach park. He went to school and continued to work. He graduated the year before me and went on to medical school. I will never buy the argument that people in depressed areas are not there by choice. My friend and I got out through hard work and so can they.

Third, what I don't like it the theory that only the government will take care of the poor. The scriptures you refer to are not talking to the Roman government but to the christians following Jesus. It was directly to the people. Allow people to be generous. Don't force them to be.

And as for Magic the Obama supporter. Name one accomplishment that obama has done. (oh, and he gives good speaches doesn't count ). I can name several off the top of my head for Mitt. He founded a billion dollar business employing 2000+ americans, helped get the SLC Oly's organized leading to a successful venture, and he sucessfully ran a state! BTW, to say hundreds of thousands of Mormons support Obama - did you and your buddies take a count or did you just estimate? I grew up in Hawaii, have all my family still in the islands, and many of my childhood friends. Everyone of them that I have spoken with are pro Mitt and anti-Obama! If you are going to join in the arguments, please try your best to keep to the facts. This is not a liberal news agency that just makes up facts (ooo low blow! sorry but I couldn't resist). I would address the rest of your arguments but the first one basically discounted the credibility of the rest of your post.

I would like to pose a question to our Dem supporters. How do you support and vote for a candidate that does everything to support abortion and nothing to stop it and will continue to do so when elected to whatever postion? What is the justification?

BTW Obama who is 100% pro-choice on ALL abortion issues. He states he will not change. Afterall according to him "who am I to second guess" these women.

I would love to hear an intellegent and well founded explanation.

imuakahuku wrote:

I would like to pose a question to our Dem supporters. How do you support and vote for a candidate that does everything to support abortion and nothing to stop it and will continue to do so when elected to whatever postion? What is the justification?

BTW Obama who is 100% pro-choice on ALL abortion issues. He states he will not change. Afterall according to him "who am I to second guess" these women.

I would love to hear an intellegent and well founded explanation.

Simple, there are way more important issues than abortion. There is not a candidate running for presidential office in this country that will ever do anything to overturn row vs. wade, if you think there is you're fooling your self. Pres. Bush certainly hasn't done anything to overturn it. There are just issues that matter more to me.

imuakahuku wrote:

First, if you want higher wages, then remove government intervention and remove the minimum wage. Ask anyone trained in real economics (not social economics) and your eyes will be opened. (Quinns first law of liberalism : Liberalism generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.)
Second, I grew up in Laie, going to Kahuku High School. One of the poorest schools in the nation. Almost nobody had a car. It took me six months to save up $35 to buy something I really wanted. Yet I am now considered "rich" by liberal standards. I went to college and paid mine and my wife's way through. I worked 50-60hrs a week while carrying 16-18 credit hours. I finished first in both majors, both minors, and both associate degrees that I took at the time. I worked. That is what it take and I did come from a very poor family. I am the first college graduate on either side of my parents family. While in school I made friends with someone from an even poorer background. He came from Columbia. He worked to by a tent and then set it up in a nearby beach park. He went to school and continued to work. He graduated the year before me and went on to medical school. I will never buy the argument that people in depressed areas are not there by choice. My friend and I got out through hard work and so can they.

Third, what I don't like it the theory that only the government will take care of the poor. The scriptures you refer to are not talking to the Roman government but to the christians following Jesus. It was directly to the people. Allow people to be generous. Don't force them to be.

And as for Magic the Obama supporter. Name one accomplishment that obama has done. (oh, and he gives good speaches doesn't count;) ). I can name several off the top of my head for Mitt. He founded a billion dollar business employing 2000+ americans, helped get the SLC Oly's organized leading to a successful venture, and he sucessfully ran a state! BTW, to say hundreds of thousands of Mormons support Obama - did you and your buddies take a count or did you just estimate? I grew up in Hawaii, have all my family still in the islands, and many of my childhood friends. Everyone of them that I have spoken with are pro Mitt and anti-Obama! If you are going to join in the arguments, please try your best to keep to the facts. This is not a liberal news agency that just makes up facts (ooo low blow! sorry but I couldn't resist). I would address the rest of your arguments but the first one basically discounted the credibility of the rest of your post.

If you read my post you'll notice all I was doing was trying to encourage people to make arguments other than "poor people are lazy and stupid". I just think we ought to have some compassion. That's great that you were able to get out, but that doesn't mean that everyone can.

The arguments you made about the economy and those scriptures being directed at Christians are good arguments. All I'm asking is that you stick to those rather than kicking people who are already down.

Hengst wrote:

Simple, there are way more important issues than abortion. There is not a candidate running for presidential office in this country that will ever do anything to overturn row vs. wade, if you think there is you're fooling your self. Pres. Bush certainly hasn't done anything to overturn it. There are just issues that matter more to me.

Wrong. The President of the United States nominates Supreme Court Justices. By anyone's rational count, there are currently 4 Justices that would almost certainly vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. Most of the Justices that are close to retirement (either becasue of age, health, or proximity to death) are liberal judges. So it is either foolish or disengenous to discount the role of a President, especially the next President.

And President Bush has done something to push the overturning of Roe v. Wade. He replaced Sandra Day O'Connor with Samual Alito. That pushed the conservative total from 3 to 4 on the Supreme Court.

Let me explain my position on Roe v. Wade. I think the reason Roe v. Wade is so contenious in this country is that it was a law that was created by the judiciary, not the legislature. Therefore, the people did not, and continue not, to have a direct say.

I'd be more comfortable with the following set-up:

I'd have Congress pass the following:
All first term abortions are legal in every state in the Union (even Utah).

All third term abortions are illegal in every state in the Union (even New York). I would provide an exception for rape/incest, or the life and health condition of the mother.

I would then allow every state to set their own policy regarding abortions for the second trimester.

Ya, I know that it is a compromise with liberals, one which many pro-lifers would reject. But my beef with Roe v. Wade is how the policy was created and "put upon" the people. We should never have judicial fiat rule any aspect of this country.

loopycoug wrote:

And this has what to do with BYU sports?

That is why this thread is in the "other" portion of the Forum.